Podcast Transcriptions

Pursue What Matters

Episode 81: Are You Rewarding the Wrong Behavior?

Please excuse any typos, transcripts are generated by an automated service

Dr. Melissa Smith 0:00
Are you rewarding the wrong behaviors? Oh, no work is hard enough. Let’s not make it harder by reinforcing ineffective behaviors, you better listen up.

Dr. Melissa Smith 0:14
Hi, I’m Dr. Melissa Smith, welcome to the Pursue What Matters podcast where we focus on what it takes to thrive in love and work. Have you ever been left scratching your head and wondering why a system isn’t working, you’ve set it up, there seems to be accountability. And yet, despite your best efforts, you are not getting the results you hoped for? Well, you might just be rewarding the wrong behaviors. It happens all the time. So let’s try and figure out if this is happening for you, and how to solve it if it is an issue.

Dr. Melissa Smith 1:12
So, you know, a little bit of behaviorism goes a long way. But it does have something to teach us when it comes to reward systems at work. So we are not rats in a maze, thank goodness. But behaviorism does have something to teach us when it comes to reward systems. So this week, on the podcast, we are going to talk about whether you might be rewarding the wrong behaviors, which oh my goodness, we really don’t want that happening.

Dr. Melissa Smith 1:48
And of course, every week on the podcast, my goal is to help you pursue what matters and strengthen your confidence to lead. And this week, primarily, I want to help you strengthen your confidence to lead a community. So I try and help you strengthen your confidence in one of three areas. So leading with clarity, leading with curiosity and leading a community. And so of course, when we’re talking about accountability, and reward systems, it’s all about leading a community and right leading, effectively.

Dr. Melissa Smith 2:25
And so obviously, we are not, we are not talking about our team members as rats in a maze. So I want to be super clear about that. But here is the thing that it is, you know, behaviorism does have some valuable things to teach us now. It’s really limited. But it does have its place. So on the folly of rewarding A while hoping for B is a seminal business article that was written by Stephen Kerr in 1975. And this article really has stood the test of time. So I first came across it in business school. So when I was doing my MBA, and I remember at the time, like okay, yeah, this happens a lot and thinking how useful it was. And, you know, it’s really interesting, because I’ve just come across it. And the the principle of it so many times since then. And of course, you know, it really harkens back to so much of my work as a psychologist and the research that we find especially in behaviorism.

Dr. Melissa Smith 3:41
So in the article Kerr talks about how people and organizations hope for one outcome, right, so in this case, B. But they are rewarding another outcome, A. So the folly of rewarding A while hoping for B. And that’s what we don’t want to happen for you. And so you know, if you’re not careful, this could be at play within your organization, as well. And so we seek information concerning what activities are rewarded. And then we seek to do those things, often at the virtual exclusion of activities that are not rewarded. And so you know, this is from the article. So this is from Kerr again, this was 1975. And I think he was from University of Ohio (Correction: The Ohio State University).

Dr. Melissa Smith 4:32
So whether dealing with monkeys, rats or human beings, it is hardly controversial to state that most organisms seek information concerning why activities are rewarded, and then seek to do or at least pretend to do those things, often to the virtual exclusion of activities not rewarded. The extent to which this occurs, of course will depend on the perceived attractiveness of the rewards offered that neither operant nor expectancy theorists, (so, behaviorists) would quarrel with the essence of this notion. And so he goes on to say, nevertheless, numerous examples exist of reward systems that are fouled up in that the types of behaviors rewarded are those which the rewarder is trying to discourage, while the behavior desired is not being rewarded at all.

Dr. Melissa Smith 5:28
So, you know, we set up reward systems, and we’re like, Okay, we got this all figured out. But we end up rewarding the exact behavior we’re trying to discourage, which is like a major palm to the forehead right there. So we can all just collectively do that together.

Dr. Melissa Smith 5:48
And then Kerr goes on, to give several examples, from across the globe, you know, in different domains from politics, war, University, sports, government, to make his case. So I’m just going to share a few examples, because I do think it is very helpful to, to understanding how this shows up. And, you know, politics is a big way that we see this showing up. So we want really, very clear goals, and how like, for instance, like how are politicians going to use our funds, but what we reward are vague goals and empty promises. So when politicians are very specific about how they will spend our money, we don’t vote for them, because actually, we don’t want to know. And so that’s actually been borne out in political research. And so politicians are actually rewarded by giving vague and empty promises. And, you know, we’ve just gone through a big election cycle. And I think we kind of know that that’s true.

Dr. Melissa Smith 7:07
And this is another example, this is from war. And that Kerr talked about so in World War Two, the soldier got to go home after they won the war. And the so right, like, it was not until the Allied forces won that the soldiers got to go home. But with Vietnam, the soldiers got to go home when their tour of duty was over. So it was a very different dynamic there. And it wasn’t tied to whether a war was won. And of course, Vietnam, right, like that, is a very different kind of war. And so what was rewarded? What behavior was rewarded with those two different conflicts?

Dr. Melissa Smith 8:00
Another example he gives from universities. So in the college system, professors are rewarded for research and publications. But they’re hired, right? Like, you know, when we think about professors, we think about them teaching. But they don’t really, you know, maybe sometimes they get, they might get some points related to how they’re rated or ranked. But we hope professors won’t neglect their teaching responsibilities, but really, they’re rewarded for research and publications. And so, professors can actually be pretty lousy instructors. But if they’re publishing, and they have a lot of research, then they’re golden, right? Like they get tenure and everything like that. And then, of course, on the student side of that, students are awarded for grades but not necessarily knowledge. So of course, the hope is that that grade translates into knowledge, but not necessarily.

Dr. Melissa Smith 9:08
And then, of course, with sports. We talk a lot about teamwork, but typically reward individual accomplishments. So whether it’s the Heisman Trophy, MVP, that sort of thing.

Dr. Melissa Smith 9:26
And then government, and this is something that we see all the time we see this in government, especially like military and maybe you also see this in in your work depending on the nature of your work. But we want there to be budgetary restraint, but next year’s budget is based on this year’s expenditures. So you know, at the end of the, the year, there is incentive to spend more money, because if you don’t, you will get your budget for next year slashed. And so that is a perverse incentive. Because what you’re incentivized to do, what’s rewarded is to spend money, you don’t need to spend, instead of saving money. And so hopefully, you can see with these examples, how, what you’re rewarding is not what you want. And so that can be really problematic. And so hopefully, you can think about how this might apply to your organization to your teams.

Dr. Melissa Smith 10:50
So whether this is with pay, whether this is with, with separation of tasks and responsibilities, that sort of thing. And so, I want you really to consider how it might be showing up in your organization. So consider your reward system, what is rewarded as an organization, maybe you preach about cultivating long term relationships, but what you reward are new sales with absolutely no incentive for cultivating long term clients. So could that be true? And so if what you really want are long term relationships, then you need to reward sales, retention, you need to reward sales expansion to existing clients. So you need to shift your reward system to actually support what it is you’re preaching about what it is you value, what it is you say that you value? And then also asking the question, what is punished. So you may have a really great diversity, equity and inclusion initiative, on the books at your organization, but what behavior is rewarded, and what behavior is punished during meetings, or on projects? So maybe compliance is rewarded. And maybe the underlying message is, this is how we do things around here. Maybe disruptive thinking is punished, shunned, or projects are just shut down, if they don’t fall in line with how things are typically done. So you’ve got to start thinking about that, and how, how this might show up in your organization. So do you reward short term gains? Or the long game? Do you reward the individual or team goals? What metrics do you use to reward?

Dr. Melissa Smith 13:05
So I’m not going to say much about metrics on this podcast, because I’ve got a podcast all about performance improvement, coming up in a couple of weeks. And so just stay tuned for that podcast. Because on the performance improvement podcast, I’m going to talk all about metrics. So you know, if you get geeky about that, you can just stay tuned for that. And I promise it’s not gonna be boring, it will be good. But you do want to think about what metrics are you using to reward individuals?

Dr. Melissa Smith 13:44
So then the next question is, are there perverse incentives. And so I’ve already mentioned this, but a perverse incentive is an incentive that has an unintended or undesirable result. That of course, is contrary to the intentions of its designers. So right like this is very similar to to what I said at the top of the podcast, which is, you know, the folly of hoping for B while rewarding A and so perverse incentives are a type of negative, unintended consequence. And so are your rewards aligned. And so you want to make sure that your rewards are aligned.

Dr. Melissa Smith 14:30
So I’ll give you an example from my organization, in terms of how our rewards are aligned. So in my organization, clinicians are rewarded. And so if we think about pay, based on their clinical percentages, so like, how many clinical hours they’re conducting every week, and so let’s think about this in terms of alignment. This is good for them and their income. This is also good for clients, because it means that they are able to get into the clinic, and to be seen by qualified clinicians. This is also good for the organization, as it means we are able to create a secure financial foundation, provide excellent clinical services in the community and contribute in other meaningful ways. It’s also good for potential new clients, right? So intakes, people trying to get into the clinic, because as we, as we keep those clinical percentages up, it means we’re able to serve people in the community. And so you want to make sure that your rewards are aligned within the organization, and so that you’re not working at cross purposes.

Dr. Melissa Smith 15:52
And so that then there’s the next question, is there misalignment? Because that’s going to create a lot of static, a lot of noise within your system. And that can be a real headache that can create such problems within your organization. So some of the ways to pay attention to this, is there misalignment between departments or divisions, and that can very often happen. I was reading a case report, and it was a large organization, and there was major disalignment. Between I think it was the trucking division and the receiving division. And so, you know, when they looked at, like, Why can we not get product shipped out on time it was because I think it was the receiving division and the trucking division, they were totally at odds. And so they were working at cross purposes, because they were incentivized differently. And so that was why they couldn’t get anything out on time. And once they had their rewards aligned, then they were never late again. But right like, that actually isn’t a problem of the trucking division, or the receiving division, that is a failure of leadership. That is a failure of that system. Like they’ve got to pay attention to these misalignments. And I think what happens is, it is so easy to blame the people like Oh, those dang truckers or those dang people in receiving and so that’s what we will talk about more as we get into solutions. But you need to pay attention to is there a misalignment between departments or divisions? Is there misalignment between individuals and teams? Is there misalignment between the individual and the organization? Is there misalignment between the organization and customers? Now, that’s a big one that sometimes we don’t think about, sometimes we only think about misalignment within the organization. But could there be misalignment between your organization and customers or potential customers pay attention to your whole ecosystem? Because there could be misalignment? Is there noise? Is there a reason why it’s hard for potential customers or potential clients to actually come in to your system, you got to pay attention to that.

Dr. Melissa Smith 18:29
Obviously, you don’t want to be working at cross purposes, as this creates unnecessary tension and drag within your system. So I also want to say here that sometimes having tension within the system is not a problem, and is actually functional. But the key is, like you want to be intentional about that you want to have awareness about it, you don’t want to be flying blind, when it comes to tension within the system. Sometimes having tension in the system is very, very functional. So you know, for instance, the United States form of government, whether you love it, or whether you hate it is actually designed to make it very difficult for laws to be passed on it is inherent in the design. And, you know, we shouldn’t have a ton of laws on the books. And so that drag in the system, the difficulty of having to, you know, go through these, these bodies for the for the legislative process. That is, that is by design. And so, you know, I I actually think it’s kind of entertaining like when I hear people complain about like, nothing ever gets done in Washington, DC, I just kind of shrug my shoulders. And I’m like, Well, actually, that’s kind of how it’s designed. Now, like I said, like, you may, you may love it, or you may hate it. But that was part of, you know, the design of the system.

Dr. Melissa Smith 20:17
So, you know, another example of this is the Texas Legislature, it only meets every two years. And this is one of the reasons for that. So philosophically, they limit government intrusion. So of course, they may have some other important reasons at play. But this is one of those reasons, they want to make it a little more difficult. And so a checks and balance system, where there is inherent tension may hold benefits. And so I’m not saying that having tension in your system is always bad. But you want to be intentional and self aware about your reward systems at play. Again, you don’t want to be flying blind, you don’t want to be working at cross purposes inadvertently. And I just really want to make sure that that’s very clear, because some, sometimes having tension in the system can be very appropriate and very functional.

Dr. Melissa Smith 21:21
So the next thing to pay attention to is when you notice inefficiencies within your organization, start paying attention to rewards. So ask what, what is the underlying reward system encouraging, right, so you got to get really, really curious. And so this, I want to share an example here, where you could have an organization in which the most inefficient and ineffective employees are essentially being rewarded for being ineffective by taking longer on projects, that it happens, right, it’s not uncommon. Meanwhile, the most effective and efficient employees are punished, because they have to pick up the slack in the system.

Dr. Melissa Smith 22:17
So think about a project based system. And so the the most ineffective employees are taking longer on the projects, they’re booking themselves out. And they’re saying, hey, this, this project is taking a long time. And so what happens, the most effective and efficient employees, they’re faster, they’re more productive, they’re more effective. And so they take up the slack. And they effectively get punished for being more efficient, more effective, more productive. And so ineffective employees are rewarded with less work, and more time to complete projects, while effective employees are punished with more work, and less time to complete the work. So this is often what the problem can look like. Effective employees may silently take it for a while, because you know, they’re your good employees, quote, unquote, your good employees. Until they can’t take it anymore. And they either quit, or they get angry. And what about the ineffective employees? You know, what, who the heck knows what they’re doing? Right, they’re certainly not adding a lot of measurable value to the organization. I don’t know what they’re doing. They’re certainly not being very productive. They’re not adding a ton of value to the organization. And they’re requiring your most effective employees to pick up the slack. What’s happening for managers or leaders in this situation? So they are typically complaining about the ineffective employees? Why can’t they get their act together? Meanwhile, and this one might hurt, right? If you’re if you’re a manager, if you’re a leader, meanwhile, they are not taking responsibility for what is primarily a management problem, not an employee problem. And I know this one can sting a little bit, but I would submit to you that this, this is a management problem, not an employee problem. You might also have an employee problem. But this is primarily a management problem. Because here’s the thing, this arrangement is working swimmingly for the ineffective employees. Right, like less work more time. Hey, what about this is is wrong, right.

Dr. Melissa Smith 25:06
But if the leaders don’t recognize and address this problem, they are going to lose their most valuable employees, all while rewarding their most ineffective employees. And this is really where you do the double palm slap to the forehead, because you really do not want this happening in your organization. So, as a manager or a leader, you cannot be blaming the ineffective employees. Right, because this is primarily a failure of leadership, it is a failure of your reward system. So we might even argue that the ineffective employees are the smartest ones here. Because they’re getting rewarded, they found a way to game the system, it’s working out really, really well for them. I know that one hurts, too. But you are hoping for B and rewarding A. And so like I said, you may also have an employee problem. But you won’t know that until you fix your rewards, your reward problem, your management problem. And I would submit that you first and foremost have a management problem, right. And so we’ve got to take responsibility as leaders to fix the system first.

Dr. Melissa Smith 26:42
So the other thing that we want to pay attention to is our motivation. What does motivation look like? Because of course, we don’t want all motivation to be reliant on rewards that will run us into the ground. And so when we think about motivation, we have extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. And when we think about extrinsic motivation, that’s when we really think about rewards and reward system, and systems. And you know, that requires a lot of work on the part of leaders a lot of oversight, a lot of follow up, there is a place for it, which is why we’re talking about it today. Because, you know, not many of us would work for free, some of us would, right entrepreneurs work for free all the time. But for most of us, we have to have some sort of reward system, until there absolutely is a place for extrinsic motivation, and reward systems. But of course, we always want to also connect with intrinsic motivation, which is connecting team members to vision, mission and purpose, and inspiring them to engage. Of course, the work here is around culture building. And this is a requirement of leaders, but it’s much less energy, right? It’s much less oversight. But it is, it’s the heart work, not not the hard work, the heart work in terms of connecting your team to purpose. And so I’m gonna be talking more about that coming up in a future podcast. So I won’t say a ton about that now. But the invitation really is to think deeply about how your organization functions, how decisions are made, and how people are incentivized, and what you use to motivate those you lead because it all really matters.

Dr. Melissa Smith 28:37
And so now let’s think in terms of solutions. And so the first solution is to inspire intrinsic motivation through culture building. And so right, I just touched on this. And as mentioned, I’m not going to say more about this here, because you guessed it, I’ve got a really great podcast coming up on this very topic. And so stay tuned, because I will have you covered on this, I’m gonna really focus on how you culture build through connecting with intrinsic motivation because that is a powerhouse for really connecting with motivation. And it’s, it’s such a powerful tool. So that’s solution one.

Dr. Melissa Smith 29:23
And then solution two is take ownership. So when looking at reward systems that may not be working well. It’s always easier to talk about the person who is not in the room and you know, this one can kind of hurt. So as leaders, it’s always easier to talk about man, that dang ineffective employee or gosh, those people down in trucking or man those people down in delivery. Resist that urge. You really do need to resist that urge because that blaming, that shaming, that judgment will not get you to solutions. In fact, it will only build resentment, it will erode your culture. And you’ve got to take ownership as a leader, you’ve got to own the process, you’ve got to own the problems. So you’ve got to start by taking ownership for the process, if you hope to get to effective results, so on the process on the reward system, even if you didn’t create it, and maybe you didn’t, then maybe you walked into a mess. And ultimately, the buck does stop with you. And your ability to lead with accountability will help everyone else take a clear eyed look at what is and is not working. So if you start pointing fingers, everyone else is going to start pointing fingers. If you get angry, if you get defensive, everyone else will get their guard up. And it’s going to be so incredibly ineffective, like you will not get to solutions. And so as a leader, you’ve got to take ownership, own the process so that you can really get to solutions.

Dr. Melissa Smith 31:14
And then solution three, get curious instead of critical. So when systems aren’t working well, right, our first tendency is to look for someone to blame. It’s a primitive reaction that we as humans are all prone to do. And really, we’ve got to resist that urge. So it can feel really vulnerable to admit flaws in the system. And this is one of the reasons we start running for cover through defensiveness, blame, shame and judgment. But your ability to get curious instead of critical about what is and is not working will make all the difference for uncovering patterns, getting buy in from the rest of the team in understanding potential concerns, and for creating effective change. So right here, I want to talk about some terms that we get from psychology. The first is the fundamental attribution error. And so this is also known sometimes as correspondence bias, or the over attribution effect. And this is the tendency for people to over emphasize dispositional, or personality based explanations for behaviors observed in others, while under emphasizing situational explanation. So for example, right? It is so easy when we are looking at the actions of other people to blame their characteristics to just say they’re lazy, or, you know, they’re just, they’re just not invested. Right, rather than actually looking at the context and the situation. And so that is the fundamental attribution error. When we are looking at another person’s behavior, we tend to identify attributions of the person personality based explanations for behaviors. So we’re we are not very generous when we look at the behaviors of other people.

Dr. Melissa Smith 33:18
So, you know, the opposite of that, right? So the other thing that happens is, when we are looking at our own behavior, we do the opposite thing. So when we look at our own behavior, we’re much more forgiving, we are looking at the context, we are looking at the situation. So when we look at our own behavior, we say we didn’t have the tools, like I didn’t have the tools I needed to be successful. Or, you know, I was really tired the night before. And so that’s why I didn’t do very well on the test. So the opposite of the fundamental attribution error is the actor observer bias. And this is what we use to explain our own behavior. And so what that means is that we’re so much more generous in explaining our own behavior. So we’re more likely to blame external forces, and then our own personal characteristics. And so both of these the fundamental attribution error, and the actor observer bias, they’re both cognitive biases. They’re both cognitive errors that we make all the time. But you’ve got to keep those in mind because when you are looking at a problem, right, we want to get curious instead of critical, we want to resist that fundamental attribution error. And really take a look at the context. Take a look at the reward system, take a look at the situation that may be contributing to the situation right to the problems that are happening.

Dr. Melissa Smith 35:00
Be generous, be generous in your assumptions. And then solution Four we want you to be a detective. But what I have here is be a friendly detective. So once you’ve identified an issue in an underlying reward system, it can be very challenging to know what the exact problem or problems might be. So this is where you really need to move into detective mode. But here’s the thing, right? And if you’re not familiar with awesome, BBC, or a British type detective films, maybe you need to have a refresher course and check out some on the BBC this weekend. But I want you to be a friendly, British detective type, not a gritty NYPD detective, we don’t want any of those. You need folks welcoming you in for a spot of tea, and you need a team of detectives to get to better solutions. Okay, so we are a friendly, curious detective trying to get to better solutions. So get curious about patterns. What do you notice? ask good questions, who is incentivized who is punished? This is where you might want to consider using a route analysis tool. So they can be really helpful for wrapping your head around a system, especially if it’s a really big system or a complicated system. And so look at everything within the chain, even if you don’t think it’s pertinent, right? Like look at the whole ecosystem. And so right, like, Look, talk to the sweet widow next door, because no one suspects her, but you should probably talk to her right? Like, if you if you ever watch British crime, and crime drama, like you always talk to the sweet but Oh, next door. So be aware that not everyone will be forthcoming. So the existing reward system may be working very, very well for some team members. So right, you got to think, perverse incentives. And so right, like, not everyone is going to be forthcoming. But focus on failures in the system, not failures of the individual. So this is why I mean, lots of reasons why, but another reason why no blaming, no shaming, no judging. We’re just curious. We’re curious about the system, not failures of the individual. And we want to avoid character assassinations, right. So unlike the crime, drama, no one is going on trial here. And we’re really looking for small tweaks and micro adjustments, right, at least initially. So it can often be satisfying to find the smoking gun. But you know, this is often not how real life works. And so you know, often it’s small changes that need to be need to happen. And so be patient, listen to the feedback of team members. And, you know, form a working hypothesis based on the feedback you receive, and be willing to make those small adjustments and then iterate as you go. It can be a little frustrating to you and to your team. But this is probably going to be the most effective change is, you know, iterate as you go. Because you probably won’t know everything you need to know, as you start out.

Dr. Melissa Smith 38:31
Okay, and then the fifth solution is to implement changes in the reward system, based on what you have learned. So based on your sleuthing, right, you may decide you have to overhaul your existing system, you know, in which case, I will pray for you. I hope that’s okay. Or you might decide that you can start with some small adjustments. And then, you know, like I said a minute ago, iterate as you go. Of course, the second choice is easier to implement. But here’s the thing, if your existing reward system is so broken, or corrupt or ineffective, you really are going to be better off to throw it out and start over, which is why I will be praying for you. So this sends a powerful message to your team, that you hear their concerns, and that you’re not trying to patch up a problem with bandages that you know, like a gaping wound that that needs a major intervention with bandages. And so if, if you need a new reward system, do a new reward system. But of course, it can be super challenging to implement a new reward system, depending on lots of factors right like the size of your team, the reward system being implemented. The KPI Performance Improvement that’s involved. So if you know if you’re part of a larger organization, or you answer to a higher authority, so all of these factors will increase the complexity. So I just want to acknowledge that. But here’s the thing, it’s an important task. And it’s a worthwhile task, and be intentional. So you’ve done your homework. And hopefully you have clarity about what needs to be done, and get support and help as needed. So this is where a leadership coach would be helpful. This is where team members who can help with the process, and can be really helpful because it’s a big process. Maybe you have a project team. To help with this, it’s a group effort. And that would be really good, right? Because then there’s going to be more buy in, do you have a specific rollout period.

Dr. Melissa Smith 40:59
So a phased approach can be helpful. And you’ll want to manage expectations, let your team know what to expect, that there will be changes that you are open to feedback, in fact that you’re relying on their feedback, if you know you are Don’t, don’t tell them something you’re not. And let them know that it likely won’t be smooth. And so this might be a situation where you want to under promise and over deliver. And then also consider timing. So based on your products, sales, development calendars, right, like, obviously take all of that into consideration, sometimes are better than others. And so obviously pay attention to that. And then you really want to communicate throughout the whole process. So don’t leave your people hanging, especially when they’ve invited you into tea, and have given you important feedback about what is not working right, this vulnerable to give this kind of feedback about what’s not working. And so you’ve got to be communicating with them. So even if you don’t feel that you have substantive updates, communicate with the team about the process, because you know, that’s going to build trust and reliability. And they need to know that they can count on you, especially the team members for which the reward system is not working at all. So they need to know that there’s a plan, and even if they don’t have all the details of that plan.

Dr. Melissa Smith 42:37
Okay, so the last solution. Number six is conduct system checks regularly. So once you have your system in place, make sure you check your rewards systems regularly. Is it still doing what it was designed to do? And have perverse incentives set in? Is the system being gamed? Are there inefficiencies in the system? Is there misalignment. So these are just right, like just a systems check. To pay attention to, and especially as you grow, you will need to revisit your reward system, and your metrics and really ensure that you are not at cross purposes. But you know, this, sometimes, taking a deep dive into your reward system can feel really overwhelming, it can feel very challenging, but it’s really important work. And as you do that, it can make such a difference for the morale of your team. And it can really, you know, I’ve had to think about it as like, it’s just it’s, it’s trimming the sails, you know, it can really set you on the right path for your organization. And so it’s really worth your time and energy and certainly something that you don’t need to be doing alone, right, we get a group effort and get buy in around that. So I hope this was helpful for you. And of course, I have a couple more podcasts tied to this topic around performance improvement and motivation and change culture. So I hope you will look to those podcasts as well. And in head talk. In the meantime, head on over to my website to check out the show notes with the resources for this episode@www.dr Melissa smith.com forward slash episode dash 81 one more time that’s www.dr Melissa smith.com forward slash episode dash 81. I’m Dr. Melissa Smith. Remember love and work work in love. That’s all there is. Until next time, take good care.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai