Pursue What Matters
Episode 30: The Power of Gratitude
Please excuse any typos, transcripts are generated by an automated service
Dr. Melissa Smith 0:00
First off, Happy Thanksgiving. If you’re listening to this on Thanksgiving, this is one of my favorite holidays. And it’s not just because I love the food, which you know, of course, I love the food.
Dr. Melissa Smith 0:10
But it’s because it is a holiday dedicated to stepping back and looking at everything in life you’re grateful for. And you know, expressing gratitude that is powerful. So in honor of this great holiday, I’m talking all about the power of gratitude and how we can implement expressing it in our life. And of course, it’s not just about one day of the year, we want to make that a daily practice. So let’s jump in.
Dr. Melissa Smith 0:37
Hi, I’m Dr. Melissa Smith, welcome to the Pursue What Matters Podcast, where we focus on what it takes to thrive in love and work. Today, we are talking all about the importance of gratitude. And there is a lot of science, on the effectiveness of gratitude for increasing happiness and joy in your life. There’s so so much research that supports this. And so we’re going to talk about the science of gratitude, but also just about how it really makes life so much better. And so I’m not going to get too sciency on you, hopefully, that really just hopefully, build some inspiration and some motivation to really help you to cultivate a daily gratitude practice in your life, if you are not already doing so. So if you spend any time in the social science literature, and you were to ask the question, What can I do to be happier, all roads lead in one clear direction, and that direction is gratitude. So what is it about gratitude that is so powerful? Well, that’s exactly what we’re going to be talking about today. And so I hope that it will really strengthen your commitment to a daily gratitude practice, if that’s not already a part of your life. So gratitude is a subject that at this point, has garnered a lot of research attention. And so there’s tons of researchers from a lot of different fields, who are studying its effects, to see what it is about gratitude that makes it so darn effective. And it’s great, like the research is awesome. And so we’ve had a chance to look at gratitude from several different angles. And the one conclusion that everyone has come to is this, gratitude works. And it works in several domains. And the bottom line is this, cultivating a daily consistent gratitude practice will make you happier. And isn’t that awesome. So there’s no real need to complicate the matter, you know, we can definitely jump into the details of why this is, and we can talk all day about hedonic adaptation. But at the end of the day, what you need to know is this, if you want to be happier in your life, you need to cultivate gratitude through daily acts that do not grow stale. So that’s kind of what we’ll be focusing on. So I do want to share with you some of the incredible findings of the benefits of gratitude across various domains. So I want to share some of the benefits of gratitude in five main areas. And then of course, I’m going to give you some some specific ideas to get you started on cultivating or strengthening your gratitude practice. So the five areas that I’m going to focus on today are emotional personality, social career, and health. So those those are kind of the five areas that I’m going to focus on today, although there are more. So when it comes to emotional, so the gratitude contributes to more good feelings, more feelings of relaxation, more resilience, and that’s a big one like you, you know, life is hard. And if you want to have more feelings of resilience, more ability to cope with life’s challenges, then cultivate gratitude, less feelings of envy, and competition and comparison, and more happy memories, which I think is pretty cool. So when it comes to personality, so that’s the second area. People who have more gratitude in their life are less materialistic. So I want to kind of dive into some of the details of this one, because you know, we’re heading into the holiday season, I think, right? Tomorrow if you’re listening to this on Thanksgiving is Black Friday.
Dr. Melissa Smith 4:59
So In America, it’s Black Friday. It’s a big, it’s a big shopping day for lots of people that materialism is strongly correlated with reduced well being, and increased rates of mental illness. Okay, so who materialism is not a great thing. And we really live in consumerism, culture, I mean, it’s just everywhere. And the problem with materialism is that it makes people feel less competent. It reduces feelings of relatedness and gratitude. And it reduces their ability to appreciate and enjoy the good in life. And so what happens is, when you’re when you’re more materialistic, it generates these negative emotions, it makes you feel more self centered, and it makes you like, it contributes to this feeling of wanting, and not feeling as though you have enough. And, you know, you’ve probably noticed that experience in yourself. So these findings are collected from peer reviewed research. But there’s this great little website is called happier human. And they’ve kind of collected some of these findings in one place. And so that’s one of the resources that I used. And so I have a link to that website. So you can check that out if you would like to. So if you want to strive for more, what is your purpose for wanting more, so what I would recommend to you is want more for serving more, want more for contribute for contributing meaningfully. So if you only want more, so you can get your 24 foot ski boat, you know, you might be thrilled for about a month, but in the long run, this will undermine your happiness. And so this is due to hedonic adaptation. So I’ve talked about this before in previous podcasts, and I will link to the happiness podcast that I did a while ago. So you can check out that podcast if you would like. But you know, after about two weeks or one month, if you’re lucky, the joy or the happiness that you felt at getting the new boat will really wear off, and you will go back to your baseline level of happiness, with nothing to show for it, but that boat payment. And so when we strive after material goods, the short term benefit or the short term boost in happiness is just that it’s just a short term boost, that when we pursue after a higher purpose, where we’re serving others or contributing to something that’s purpose driven, right, so contributing to a higher purpose, then that really does shift our level of happiness in a more significant way. Right. So it’s more than just the short term benefit. So as opposed to the hedonic adaptation, if you are striving for, for more with the aim of contributing, you are not focused so much on your own happiness and your own needs. And this ironically, makes you happier. So isn’t that curious forgetting about yourself, cultivates greater happiness. And this brings to mind one of my favorite quotes from Viktor Frankl. So he says, For Success, like happiness cannot be pursued, it must ensue. And it only does so as the unintended side effect of one’s personal dedication to a cause, greater than oneself. Or as the byproduct of one surrender to a person other than oneself, happiness must happen. And the same holds for success. You have to let it happen by not caring about it. And I really love that it’s so true, if you are pursuing success or happiness, by focusing on what you want, and kind of your own selfish desires, you will never be happy. But when you can focus your sights on a higher purpose, whether that’s on serving another person or contributing meaningful meaningfully to you know, a vision or an organization that is doing meaningful work, then that’s what really contributes to happiness. So it’s very cool. So the pursuit of
Dr. Melissa Smith 9:24
wealth and power has been shown in dozens of studies to be a highly inefficient method of increasing well being and happiness. So you’re right, the results are in and it just doesn’t work. So of course, we know that there is a baseline income at which we need to be able to meet our needs in order to be secure, right, like if you are, you know, if if you’re living in a cardboard box, under the viaduct, it’s hard to be happy because your basic needs are not being met. You know, I think we can all agree to that. But after we reach Very, actually, it’s quite a basic level of sustenance in terms of getting our needs for security met, and right, like we can feed ourselves, we can feed our children, we have a certain amount of security in terms of meeting ends meet, right, then more income does not add to happiness. And, you know, I think that’s hard for a lot of us to accept, but it is it is true, and it’s been shown time and time again. So you’ve also got to consider what it costs to pursue doubling your income, if that’s your goal. So how might that undermine your relationships? You know, how might that goal cause your health to suffer or create major sacrifices in other areas. So the reality is that you can’t cut yourself off from the whole, and expect happiness to be the result just because you’ve got more money in your bank account. And so we’ve always got to pay attention to your whole life. And you know, if you’re striving really hard after one goal in one area, how might that be undermining you and other areas. And so applying that same level of energy towards strengthening one’s relationships, cultivating compassion and gratitude, and so much, so on much more reliably creates positive transformative change, you know, so if you’re like, Okay, I really want to be happier. So instead of putting that energy into trying to double your income, maybe you put that energy towards strengthening your relationship, that’s going to give you a much higher return on your investment is cultivating those relationships.
Dr. Melissa Smith 11:48
Okay, so let’s just say a couple more things about materialism. So we know that materialism flows from two sources primarily. So the first is role models. And the second is insecurity. So what we know is that Americans are inundated with materialistic role models every day. So if we think about our celebrity culture, which glorifies you know, the rich and famous to business culture in which we are told that our dream should be to be rich and powerful, it can be really confusing. And it can be easy to focus on those goals, that gratitude can really help by reducing our tendency to compare ourselves to those with a higher social status. And if there’s one thing that you can do to help yourself in this respect, it is to stop comparing yourself to others. And certainly to stop glorifying the celebrity culture, which, you know, honestly, if you stop and look at them, you might find that you hold none of their values. So why on earth would you hold them up as an example for yourself. So I was just thinking, Oh, be careful who you worship. And then to the second issue around materialism, which is insecurity, those who are insecure that is, you know, those who do not have their basic psychological needs met. So if we think about lacking confidence coming from a poor background, or having unsupportive social systems, they’re more likely to be materialistic. And so gratitude here again, is an effective strategy for reducing the psychological insecurity because a grateful emotion is triggered when we perceive an act of benevolence directed toward us. So those who are ungrateful, are less likely to, to see the kind acts of others toward them, even if they’re surrounded by a loving environment. And so, you know, you’re less likely to see the goodness around you when you are ungrateful and so flipped around. Those who cultivate an attitude of gratitude are more likely to perceive an environment of goodness, which in turn causes their brains to assume they are in an environment full of social support, which in turn, tends to kill that sense of insecurity and materialism. So it turns into this virtuous cycle, which is pretty cool. Okay, so now so that’s a little bit of a deeper dive on the materialism issue. So now let’s look at some of the other personality factors that we see with people who have more gratitude. so grateful people tend to be less self centered, more optimistic, have higher self esteem and increased spirituality. And then on the social front, people who are grateful have healthier marriages. They’re more socially connected. They’re kinder, right? These are the people you want to hang around with. They have more friendships and deeper relationships. So not only do they have more connections, but those connections are more meaningful. So that’s pretty awesome. And then let’s talk about career. And we’ll go into a little bit of a deeper dive on the career front. Because of course, that’s what we are focusing on with the podcast with career. Grateful people are better managers. So you heard it here first, maybe maybe not here first. But it’s it’s definitely one of the findings in the research. So gratitude generates social capital, which I think is such a cool finding. So in two studies with 243 participants, those who were even 10%, more grateful than average, had up almost 20%, more social capital. And so honestly, if you think about this, in terms of emotional intelligence, gratitude is a function of emotional intelligence. And so gratitude makes us nicer, more trusting, more social, and more appreciative. So as a result, being grateful helps us to make more friends, deepen our existing relationships, and improve our marriages. So all in all, you know, when we’re grateful people want to hang around us. And people want to trust us and cultivate relationships with us. And so
Dr. Melissa Smith 16:22
great gratitude is absolutely a function of emotional intelligence. And it, it helps us to develop more trusting relationships, which also leads to more leadership positions. So of course, we can see that this pays huge dividends, not only in leading others, improve network networking, but healthier marriages, more relationships, stronger social connections, and of course, deeper friendships. So in essence, you’re building a strong network of support through your ability to generate strong connections. And so this is huge in every aspect of life. And so, of course, this is the epitome of emotional intelligence right here. Okay, so the other benefits of gratitude in the world of career include improved networking, goal achievement, so people who are grateful, have more focus. And they, they’re actually more successful on reaching their goals, because they have more clarity about things, improve decision making, and increase productivity. So and I think one of the connecting links there is that they just have more clarity about things. So I think that’s really cool. And then the last area so I talked about some of the benefits in five different areas, the last areas health, and grateful people have improved sleep. So if you want to sleep better, be grateful try that instead of Ambien. Grateful people have less illness. Grateful people have more longevity. So they live longer. They have increased energy, and they exercise more. So on every on every front, they’re healthier. So I think that’s, that’s pretty cool. So there is no downside to gratitude. And so now let’s move to solutions. Because that’s what we really want to pay attention to. So, you know, hopefully, you already have some sort of daily gratitude practice. And if you don’t, that’s okay, I’m going to give you some ideas. So either I want you to start cultivating daily gratitude practice, or become more consistent with a daily gratitude practice, because that’s what really makes the difference is that consistent gratitude practice, so, so not hit and miss, right? So we want something that’s consistent, that doesn’t get stale. So I want to give you several options to choose from solution, one, keep a gratitude journal. Okay, this is usually the first option that people talk about whenever they talk about gratitude practices, and it’s usually the first one for a good reason, because it’s something that most people can do pretty easily. And there’s really good research to support it. So keep a daily gratitude journal where you note gratitudes from the day, so sometimes these may be big and sometimes they may be really simple. Like, you know, I enjoyed the feel of the sun on my cheeks when I walked out to my car. So don’t necessarily aim for a specific number. As research indicates that if this practice gets rote, like Okay, I’m gonna have five every single day that it can lose its meaning. But instead, what I want you to do is strive for meaningful encounters throughout the day. And then one step better, even better than that. Is to note the gratitude throughout the day, and then make a mental note to journal at the end of the day and then do it. So, you know, maybe, maybe what you do is you just keep a little journal with you or you know, even have a note on your phone, that as you go through the day, and you know, something that you’re grateful for, you just jot it down as you go through your day. And then at the end of the day, you take a little more time to journal about the things that you noted throughout the day. And the key is that you start to cue yourself, to spend your days looking for experiences to be grateful for. And when you do that, you’re really likely to find them. And that this can really help shift your perspective, towards more optimism, and towards more hope. And it can make a really big difference in the way that you see yourself, other people and your daily experiences. So a five minute, a day daily gratitude journal can increase your long term well being by more than 10%.
Dr. Melissa Smith 21:23
And so that’s, you know, a simple Five Minute Journal writing exercise can give you a 10% bump in your happiness level. So that’s, you know, that’s a pretty good return on investment right there. So, one thing to know about this is that all of the relevant studies on gratitude journaling, show that change does take time. And we know that right, as humans, we know that change occurs slowly. So it it takes several weeks, or even months of continuous practice for the largest benefits to appear. So you’ll notice some benefits over a couple of weeks or so. But for the largest benefits to appear, it does take some time. And this is for a couple of reasons. So cultivating gratitude is a skill. And so like most skills, right, it takes time to build, so you need to stick with it. And that really underscores the point that I’ve made throughout the podcast, but especially just a couple of minutes ago, which is consistent action really makes all the difference. And then the second reason is that gratitude is also a personality trait. And so we’re wanting to move the needle on your personality continuum. And that’s gonna take some time. So we all have individual variability along the gratitude personality continuum. So kind of imagine that for yourself. And so if you want to increase your gratitude quotient, you’ve got to stick with it and consistently move that needle on your personality continuum, if you’re hoping to adjust your setpoint. Okay, so the example that I used before, if you go through your day, with an eye trained for looking for things to be grateful for, you will start to find them. Right, but it’s going to take, it’s going to, it’s going to take some proactive attention, it’s going to take noting, it’s going to take writing about that, to start to move that needle at towards more optimism, you know, if we think about that personality continuum. And so that isn’t going to take time. But with some consistent effort, you absolutely can make those adjustments. And I think that’s pretty cool, because personality is a big thing, that you absolutely can adjust that set point. Okay solution to send a text, make a call, or write a letter to someone every day expressing gratitude. So expressing thanks to others has an exponential effect on gratitude. And it really does create a virtuous cycle of more love and gratitude, both toward us and toward our circle of relationships. So, you know, if you tend to be a grateful person, you may notice feelings of gratitude for others. And many of us do, right, like so how many times have you felt gratitude for someone, but then just left it at that. So I just want you to take it one step further. And actually take the time to send a quick note of appreciation. So send a quick note, send the text, make the call, and let that other person know that you’re thinking of them or you know, thank them for whatever it is that comes to mind. So these small and simple gestures can be deeply meaningful. strengthening connections and cultivating even more gratitude. And this really is like ripples on the pond, as its effect extends far beyond you. And it’s it can be really powerful. Solution three, challenge the consumerism, culture. And this really speaks specifically to what what I was talking about earlier with materialism. Instead of embracing materialism in all of its forms, right? worshipping the celebrity culture, comparing yourself to others and finding yourself wanting, spending beyond your means and feeling discontent with what you have, I really want you to focus on living within your means. Recognize that you have what you need to live well, and identifying the boundaries of your life. So, you know, take an abundance perspective rather than a scarcity perspective. So one, one of the things that you one of the ways that you could do this, is you could say, I have verses I want, right, and you could make a list of that, what are all the things that you have, versus I want and just notice, notice your language around that. We think about this language of I am enough, and I have enough,
Dr. Melissa Smith 26:20
versus I am never enough, I need to buy more, I need to earn more, I need to prove more. So I really want to challenge that thinking. And then of course, the ever present, need versus want, and maybe sitting down and doing an inventory of needs versus wants. And let me just say you probably will not want to do this, because it’s not very pleasant. And most of us like when we want something, we really want it and we want to justify it and say that it is a need. But really getting honest with yourself, and determining, okay, what’s the need and what’s a want, and getting clear with yourself and then having some discipline with yourself on that. Another thing that you can do to challenge the consumerism culture is to limit trips to the store, and or online shopping. Because Boy, that online shopping is so easy like you can, you can spend all sorts of money without ever getting off the couch. It’s pretty dangerous. So instead of shop stopping by the store every time you need something in quotes, right? force yourself to wait several days, unless it’s a true emergency. And I’m just going to note that there are very few true emergencies like, like very, very few. So I think what you’ll find is, you’ll be very surprised how few things you truly need. You’ll probably also notice that your expenses go down, you’ll spend a lot less time running errands and shopping. You know, and I think it’s also really great, like if you, you know if you are buying or like if you’re shopping for the family, it also sets up some expectations and discipline for the family, right to be able to say, well, we’re not going to go to the store until the end of the mom. And so you’re going to have to find a way to manage or you know, you need to plan ahead. And so you’ll just have to wait. And I think that can be really helpful, especially for you know, kids and teenagers to recognize that just because they want something or quote unquote need something doesn’t mean that we run right out and get it. And that can that can be a very useful lesson for kids and adults alike. Okay, another way that you can challenge the consumerism culture is to outline and stick to a budget. So determine, for example, Determine your budget for the holiday season. And then resist urges to increase spending. So decide what your values are and focus your energies there. So of course, we want to avoid the consumerism that is such a part of the holiday season, the stress of busy holiday obligations. And you know, so one of the things that my family has decided we’ve done this several years in a row is, you know, that first of all, like, our kids don’t need a stinking thing. And we really want to resist this consumerism, culture and the holidays. Being about buying things. We really do not want to be part of that culture that’s not consistent with our values that’s not consistent with why we celebrate the holidays. And so, we have made a decision that we really want to spend those holidays as a family and That’s, that’s where our value lies. So sometimes we’ll do a holiday vacation together, that sort of thing where it’s like, okay, we’re spending time together. And that’s our value. And it’s not around buying gifts or out shopping and that sort of thing, which is stressful. And, you know, it puts you out of your budget and all of that other stuff. And so, like being clear about where your values are, and then determining what those boundaries are, and sticking with it. And what I would say about this is this is certainly been a lot easier to do as our children have gotten older. But I think it’s also great, like you can set those expectations with your children, even when they’re younger. And I think it also requires you to, you know, have conversations with your extended family. And that’s something that we’ve done with our extended family to say, you know, we really don’t want to be getting a lot of gifts. And so please be mindful of that. Because sometimes, for loved ones, they’re like, oh, like, What do you want, we want to give you gifts and all this other thing. And so sometimes it means having some of those challenging conversations with loved ones, and just helping them know that while you appreciate and respect their desire to give you a
Dr. Melissa Smith 31:18
gift, you also want to help them understand kind of what you’re what you’re trying to prioritize. Okay, solution for share your day around the dinner, dinner table, including one expression of gratitude. So this could be a really powerful way to transmit your value of gratitude to your children, and an important way of learning what your children value. So share the challenges of the day, and how you were supported, strengthened or in court or encouraged. So these definitely don’t have to be rainbow and unicorn stories. So you don’t need to look for the silver lining. Sometimes they’re gritty and painful stories. And they should always be real. Gratitude is about seeing the gift and the gritty, sometimes it’s about seeing the divine in the dirt. So don’t be afraid to look for these moments, and point them out to your children. Indeed, you know, if you don’t, how will they know to recognize them in their own lives. And I would just say these can be some of the most powerful moments in family life when you really get to know and understand your children and you have a chance to help them make sense of their experiences. And help them to, to develop some perspective on the things that they’re going through. So these are really important moments. And so it’s a great opportunity. Okay, solution five, begin or strengthen your mindfulness practice, okay, I’m always talking about this one, because it is so darn important that mindfulness will help you to be more grateful. cultivating more awareness allows you to be more observant to your life, and to notice all that you have and are, it is a real gift to be able to see yourself and your life more clearly, without the anks of materialism, anxiety and wanting that so often comes with the world we live in. And this is really the gift of mindfulness. So what I would say is get an app, because it really, really helps. So I really love calm headspace is also really popular. You can also download things on Audible, or you know, on YouTube, there are so many options available. If you’re a local in Utah County in Utah, our clinic has a free drop in meditation group every Wednesday evening at 5pm. It’s just 25 minutes. And so you’re always welcome to stop by to that meditation group. It’s awesome. It’s a great way to start a meditation practice if you’re new to meditation. And so I will include the link to that in the show notes. So if you’re a local, you can find out more about that free drop in meditation group. And now let’s talk about solution six, which is volunteer. So one of the best things that we can do to cultivate gratitude is to get out of our own head and out of our own way. So helping others brings perspective on our own life and absolutely cultivates gratitude. So definitely look around you and start small. There’s no need to complicate service. So you don’t need to serve Tibetan refugees in order for service to be effective. And you know, of course, we have some Tibetan refugees to to serve, that’s awesome. But if there is a child in your own home, who needs your love and attention, start there. No. Does. Does one of your own children need someone to read them? A story every night? Does your neighbor need someone to help them with dinner? Does your mother Need a ride to the hospital once a week, get quiet and pay attention to where you may be called to serve. And I would say look around your own home, your own neighborhood, your own community, there are countless ways that we can serve. There are 1000s of nonprofits that are started every year. And that’s, you know, like, that’s great and everything. But honestly, do we need another nonprofit? I really don’t think we need more nonprofits started. But we need more people working together, we need more crossing guards. We need more adults reading to children in neighborhood elementary schools. And so again, start where you are, start local, there are needs all around you. And often you do not need to leave the confines of your own neighborhood to get started. And so
Dr. Melissa Smith 36:10
you know, don’t start a nonprofit, just just open your eyes and start where you are. Okay, solution seven. So this is the last solution I have for you. Although there’s so many more on gratitude. Spend time with those you love. Of course, this is related to the last solution, because very often we are serving those we love. But in order to have more gratitude in your life, spend time with those you love. And make it a priority. And sadly, you know, sometimes we don’t make this a priority. So if you have a partner set day nights, and keep keep those date nights, make your kids go to the play with you. So I laugh at this because I do this, I do this regularly. And they love slash hate it. And I just love it. And even though I have to tolerate them complaining and rolling their eyes pretty much the whole time. I love it. And I think they kind of I think they kind of like it. I mean, I think they like to complain about the plays. But this is built in family time. But I also go to every single one of their lacrosse games. And they roll their eyes at me when I’m you know, shouting from the sidelines. So you know, it’s karma we it all works out. But be involved in what your family’s involved in and make sure that make sure that you’re making time for the things that really count. I also so one of the things that we do is on Sunday evenings, we we often have a whole gaggle of college students and our home for Sunday dinner. And let me tell you, it is a lot of work. And it’s quite expensive, because, you know, these, these college students, they know how to eat, but I would not trade it for the world. I love having them in my home. And I love that they have you know, a home actually to come to when they are far from their homes. I love listening to their banter around the dining room table. And I love Love, love getting a little glimpse into their lives. And at the end of the night, when they finally all go home after billiards and dessert and you know, lots and lots of belly laughs and I’m exhausted. And I know that Monday morning is going to come away way too fast. I fall into bed so deeply and incomparably grateful for the gift it is to know these incredible people and to have them in my life. And like that’s the stuff that really matters. So really making sure that you’re taking the time to spend time with those you love and to cultivate relationships. And to really make room for people make room for relationships and make room for people in your life. And I say that as as a person who can really be a slave to my to do list. Like I’m always really focused on that. And, and it has not served me well. And so I really tried to make a diligent effort to to really focus on making time for the stuff that really matters, which, which are our relationships. And I think that applies both at home and at work. You know, so if we think about, you know, at the end of at the end of our meetings, right, it’s easy to just rush off to the next thing and sometimes right that needs to happen because you got it You got to get to the next thing. But sometimes it’s also equally important to stick around and visit, you know, so making sure that you are prioritizing people and spending time with those you really care about and are cultivating those connections. Okay, so hopefully this gives you some good direction to to strengthen your gratitude practice. So make sure you head on over to my website, check out all the show notes with the resources for this episode at www.drmelissasmith.com/episode-30, one more time, that’s www.drmelissasmith.com/episode-30
Dr. Melissa Smith 40:54
And I’ve got lots of lots of great resources for you. There are some links to websites that have a little more details about some of the research on gratitude. So if you want to do a little bit more reading on that research, you can link to all of that through the show notes. So I hope you have a wonderful holiday season. And remember, I’m on iTunes and Spotify. So you can subscribe there and I’m also on Instagram, so I’d love to connect there as well. And of course you can find out all the details about this episode at my website. I’m Dr. Melissa Smith. Remember love and work or can love. That’s all there is. Until next time, take good care.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai