Pursue What Matters
Episode 27: Meetings You Don’t Hate: Is It Possible?
Please excuse any typos, transcripts are generated by an automated service
Dr. Melissa Smith 0:00
Cue your favorite slash worst episode of the office with Michael Scott at the front of the conference room, calling yet another staff meeting. We’ve got Stanley on the back row doing his crossword puzzle. We’ve got Jim and Pam sideline talking on the front row. Of course, you’ve got Creed’s freaky and slightly sociopathic comments coming from the corner. Of course, Ryan and Kelly have their love Spats going. Phyllis is syrupy, sweet, passive, aggressive sideswipes on row two, only rivaled by Angela’s open hostility and impatience at being pulled away from her spreadsheets, and nanny cams of her cats. And of course, we’ve got Dwight’s brown nosing while Michael is failing to get attention for his latest sales gimmick. Sounds familiar?
Dr. Melissa Smith 0:51
Well, you know, hopefully your meetings are slightly more effective than the one I just described. But if research is any indication, you probably hate meetings just as much as the cast of the characters of the office. So you’ve got to listen in today, because we are going to talk all about how to hate office meetings just a little less, if that’s even possible, by making them highly effective. So let’s jump in.
Dr. Melissa Smith 1:22
Hi, I’m Dr. Melissa Smith, welcome to the pursue what matters Podcast, where we focus on what it takes to thrive in love and work. Unfortunately, most of us have spent years of our lives sitting in unproductive meetings. And it’s so sad because we could be getting a lot of things done. The reality, though, is that most of us work in teams. And so the majority of group work is done in meetings. And so if meetings are inefficient, ineffective, or of low quality, then of course, the quality of our work suffers, and the entire organization suffers. This is not good. So today I’m going to share the research on determining whether you need a meeting or not. So that’s kind of the first question, most of us just have way too many meetings in the first place. And then we’re going to focus on how to make your meetings more effective. And I’ll have some really great solutions that you can start to implement to day, I also have a really great freebie for you. So I hope you will listen to the end and then head on over to my website for the show notes. And you can download this freebie it’s going to give you all that you need to know to you know, first of all, determine if you need a meeting and then to really make your meetings highly effective and efficient, because that’s what we want, right? Like we want our work to be effective. And we want to raise the caliber of our meetings. So before you go thinking, you know that maybe you’re not in a formal work setting, or you don’t work on a big team. And so you know, you’re going to go ahead and skip this episode, I really hope that you’ll think again, because this information can really be helpful in any setting. Because you know, the reality is that we all work in groups we work, we work with other people, we think about family settings, you think about church service settings, volunteer settings, even very small group settings, distance group settings, there’s always opportunity to make these gatherings more effective. You know, if we just think about setting an agenda, that’s it, that’s an art on unto itself. So there are so many applications. And so I really hope that you will definitely stick around because there, I promise, there will be some great information for you. Okay, so first, let’s take a look at the numbers. So one range of studies calculated that 36 to 56 million meetings occur every day in the US. Okay, so that’s a ton of meetings. So of course, this is absolutely the way that we work in the US. And of course, that number certainly would extend outside of the US. That’s that’s how people are meeting all over the world. In a worldwide Microsoft survey of 38,000 people 69% said that their meetings were not productive. Okay, so 69% so there’s a lot of room for improvement and the quality of our meetings and a Harris Poll of over 2000 employees found that almost half of the respondents would prefer to do almost anything else, instead of sitting in a status And so what would they rather be doing? Almost anything else?
Dr. Melissa Smith 5:04
So let’s, take a look at this. So 17% said that they would rather watch paint dry than sit in a meeting, you know, that’s a pretty bad meeting. 8% said they would rather have a root canal. That’s a, that’s a really bad meeting. And 46% of people said they would rather wait at the DMV. Okay, now I just, I’ve got two teenagers that, you know, have just gotten their driver’s permit. And so I have just spent a lot of time at the DMV, and the fact that almost half of the respondents in this study said that they would rather wait at the DMV, I mean, that makes me crazy, because the DMV is not an enjoyable place to be sitting around. And so you know, the the take home message from these surveys, makes it clear that we have a lot of room for improvement when it comes to the quality and the effectiveness of our meetings. So there’s, there’s definitely some work to be done here. So one of the big problems with meetings is that they may be doing your organization more harm than good. And that’s a really, you know, kind of depressing thought that your meetings might be undermining your organization. And so let’s let’s think about that for just a moment. Because obviously, you don’t want that happening. And no one has ill intention when they go about setting meetings. But meetings can actually kill workplace productivity, efficiency and satisfaction. And anyone that’s sat in a miserable meeting can attest to that. But let’s, let’s kind of dig into the numbers and look at that. So the average worker spends nine hours sitting in or getting ready for meetings. Okay, so that comes from a great book from Michael Hyatt called no fail meetings. And I will link to that book because I think it’s a really great resource. It’s a, it’s a quick read. And it’s, it’s one that you can just reference back, it’s a nice little primer on setting up effective meetings. So I will link to that book, but nine hours sitting in are getting ready for meetings. And so think about that, that might be work, that that preparation might actually be taking you away from your core work, you know, sometimes that PrEP is part of your core work, but sometimes it actually takes you away from your core projects or core tasks at work. So six and 10 workers report preparing for a simple status meeting takes longer than the meeting itself. Okay, so that’s really inefficient. The take home message here, right, is that we need to be really careful about the scheduling of meetings, because of course, it’s not just the time that the meeting itself takes. But what is this requiring of our team members in terms of preparation, so that’s one key, and what is the meeting taking them away from not only in terms of preparation, but the time in the meeting itself. And so the second point is that meetings also potentially undermine organizational organization profitability. And so you’ve got to be mindful of the economic impact of meetings. So One study found that American companies waste $37 billion per year on meetings. And so this, you know, I’m definitely not saying that you shouldn’t ever have meetings, because there there’s a lot of value to meetings.
Dr. Melissa Smith 8:50
But you’ve got to be very wise in First of all, determining your rationale for meetings, and then making those meetings count. So a single fortune 500 company can expect annual losses of $75 million on bad meetings. Okay. So if we’re just thinking about, where can you make up last margins? And where can you save some money, let’s clean up where we know, there’s some room. So you know, we don’t have to go, we actually don’t have to go open up new markets, we don’t have to add new product lines, we could just make our existing work more efficient. We could just look at our meetings, we could just make those more efficient, or we could eliminate one meeting per quarter, we could eliminate one meeting per month that maybe isn’t necessary, and see what that might do to our bottom line. So the thing that I want you to think about is that there is always an opportunity cost when it comes to meetings. So in other words, what could your team be doing instead? Preparing for or sitting in a meeting that could provide more value to the organization. And that is, that’s always the balance, is there more value in being in this meeting versus what your team members could be doing, if they’re not in the meeting. And so you better have a pretty compelling reason for your meetings, that carry a whole lot of value for your people. Because the reality is that meeting can carry very high opportunity costs. And like I said, you know, a really good meeting, that has a whole lot of value, you absolutely should hold. And those meetings are very important, they can set vision they can set course, they can hold team members accountable. And so it’s not that you shouldn’t hold those meetings. But you need to be clear, you need to have a very clear rationale. And if you don’t, then chances are those meetings are going to be pretty ineffective. So let’s move on to the next point, which is probably the biggest concern when it comes to meetings, and that is that they are a huge time suck. And of course, we all know that most employees attend an average of 62 meetings per month. Okay, that is staggering to me. 62 meetings per month, if you just think about that, in terms of your calendar. I mean, that’s insane. So I was meeting up with a buddy of mine for my MBA program, and he’s a VP in big organization. And he showed me his schedule his meeting calendar for the week. And it was insane. Like, it actually made me anxious to look at it. And he, he told me, he’s like, I just, I don’t have any time at all, to work on my projects, to even think about planning for his division. Because he is he’s just weighed down by meetings all the time. And and that is a huge issue. So executives, in particular, spend 40 to 52% of their work time, so an average of 23 hours per week in meetings. And I actually think that number might be a little low. So they’re saying 40 to 52% of their work time, I think it actually might be a little higher than that. But you know, what do I know, that’s just anecdotally, but at least like 40 to 52% of their time, so almost half of their time in meetings. So of that almost 34% of an executives total meeting time is spent in meetings that are unnecessary, or poorly run. So of of that 50% of the time, right? Those executives are in inefficient and unnecessary meetings. Okay, that I mean, you know, how busy executives are that that like, there’s no excuse for that that should not be happening. And of course, this equates to more than two months per year lost. Okay, and so that that figure comes from that great book that I already cited for Michael Hyatt, so he went ahead and figured out those numbers. So Gosh, we got, we got to do something about that. Okay, and another big impact of meetings. And I think we don’t always consider this one. But it is a it is a really big impact. And that is that meetings interrupt our workflow. So we need time in order to get engaged on a project. But if your schedule is peppered with meetings, it is really difficult to build the runway to jump into a project that requires your sustained attention. And boy, I know that has been true for me, where, for example, if I’m working on a writing project, I know for myself, I need a good 90 minutes to two hours to even get going on a writing project.
Dr. Melissa Smith 14:23
And so if I don’t have that sort of runway, if I know like, in 45 minutes, I’m going to have a meeting. It’s like I won’t even be able to start on that project. And so when you have meetings that are scheduled all throughout the day, it’s really hard to have time where you can actually be engaged on a project. And so, you know, one of the big misconceptions that we have about meetings is that we actually get work done in meetings and yeah, as I’ve just described, And as most of us already know, this is just not the case, we don’t typically get work done in meetings, because the reality is that most of our meetings are wildly ineffective and inefficient. So why is this right? Most of us are really lazy with our meetings. And that’s just the sad truth. We lacked discipline when it comes to meetings. And you know, I probably sound pretty harsh on this one. And it’s probably because I am a bit harsh on this one, this really drives me crazy. And for me, it really comes down to respecting people’s time, and getting things done. And I really think it comes down to an issue of respect. When you call people together, you need to respect their time, and make those meetings effective. And you know, get to the point, and start them on time and finish them on time. So the other thing that contributes to this misconception that we get work done in meetings, and yet this is actually misconception is that meetings give us the appearance of getting work done. So they include a lot of flurry of activity, and meetings are kind of all about the image of working harder, but they have very little to do with working smarter. And this is exactly what we want to address with the podcast today. Because, you know, we are not about the flurry of activity and like prepping for a status meeting, but actually not getting anything accomplished during that status meeting. And if you call a meeting, make sure you need the meeting, make sure it’s a productive meeting, and make sure that it moves the team forward and moves the work forward. So with this, you know, lest you think I hate meetings, because I don’t, I really don’t, I think that there’s real power in meeting together. I also, you know, want to acknowledge that different meetings serve different functions. And sometimes the same meetings serve several different functions at once. And so you kind of have to hold multiple agendas as it were. But the bottom line, and what remains true is that we need to respect people’s times, time and needs and the purpose of the meeting as the foundation, and you just need, you just need to be transparent about that. And you need to be clear about those purposes. And that agenda. And so, just like I talked about with everything else, you know, if you if you’ve listened to any of the podcasts, hopefully you’re starting to see this theme is you’ve got to have clarity about the purpose of the meeting from the outset. Otherwise, it’s just going to get away from you. And people are going to feel confused. And you know, they’re going to, they’re going to feel frustrated. And so we do want to have clarity about that. And we don’t want people to ever wonder why they’re in the meeting or what the purpose of the meeting is, or whether the tasks have been accomplished at the end of the meeting.
Dr. Melissa Smith 18:16
Okay, so now that we’ve talked about some of the biggest problems, when it comes to meetings, I’m about to give you a couple of examples of how these play out in organizations. And you know, maybe you’ve seen them at your own work, and maybe you can think about your own examples or how they’ve shown up in your own work. And so the first example that I want you to think about, or the first scenario is what happens if your meeting is ineffective, and you did not solve the problem. So what happens in in most of these scenarios, is that the teams end up meeting again. So right you have this meeting. It’s not very effective. You didn’t, you didn’t solve the problem. And so it’s like, Okay, what do we do? What do we do? I know, let’s have another meeting. And honestly, this is so darn counterproductive. And yet it happens all the time. And so this is a quote from the excellent book, great at work by Martin T. Hansen. And I have a great podcast on this book, I do a book review on this. So if you have not checked out this podcast, definitely check this out, because it’s an awesome book. But from that book, there is a quote, and it says my boss plans too many unnecessary meetings that rarely have final results. The meeting result is another planned meeting. And so how often does that happen? Right, you have an ineffective meeting. There is no result and so they kick the can down the road, right and it gets kicked into another meeting. And what happens if you’re not careful, you’re dealing with this Same problem are the same issue for months and months down the road, and it never actually gets addressed. And so this is inefficiency and ineffectiveness, perpetuating itself over time. And that really can create such an insidious culture of ineffectiveness. And so really very unhelpful. And this next scenario is very closely related. So what happens when you have a leader that struggles to make a decision, or a leader who doesn’t know what to do in the face of uncertainty, and one of one of my beliefs about leadership is that the, you know, a leader has to be able to make decisions in the face of uncertainty, right? I mean, that is a leaders core task, is you’ve got to be able to make the hard decisions in the face of uncertainty. And it like, it’s not easy. That’s why you’re the leader. And you kind of got to have, you have to weigh all of these multiple factors. And it can, it can be painful, and it can be scary. But that’s your job. That’s your job. And so, you know, I want to just share an example of an experience that I had, and this was a long time ago. And I was part of a leadership team. And we had been in a meeting. And I think we had been, like hashing out this issue for at least, you know, at least 60 to 90 minutes. And, you know, we had had a really in depth discussion, it was a fairly complex issue. But we had come to a consensus, and we had identified a path forward, that made a lot of sense. And we were all in agreement. And and then the, the CEO said, Okay, well, let’s, let’s table this for another month. And we all just kind of looked at the CEO. And at that point, I lost my shizzle. So
Dr. Melissa Smith 22:14
I actually looked at the CEO, and I just said, Why on earth? would we do that? I said, we have been looking at this issue for months. Right. So this was not the first time we had been addressing this issue. I said, we have all the facts, we need to make the decision. We have all of the decision makers in this room. And we have just spent 90 minutes reviewing all of the facts. And we have consensus about the decision, like we have a path forward. And this is the thing like we’ve made a decision. And why on earth, are we not making the decision? And so, you know, I was so completely exasperated, that I could not, I mean, there was no way I could even filter myself if I had wanted to. And so, you know, the CEO was definitely a little taken aback. And I think I think the other members of the leadership team, were probably a little taken aback, but I think they were also frustrated. And I think they were probably just glad that like, I was the one that was speaking up. So maybe they didn’t have to, but I had a very good relationship with this individual. And so so I felt Okay, about about having a very candid conversation. And that was the kind of culture that existed that, you know, we could have a very candid conversation. And so we made the decision that day. But what it came down to, for me was that I was really tired of my time being wasted. And I felt like it was it was absolutely reaching that point, that if we kicked this issue down the street, as it were, one more month, that like, we were never going to solve this issue, and a decision needed to be made. And it just it needed to be done. And so I was definitely okay with taking the time to make the decision. But I was not okay with another meeting being called to rehash the decision that we had effectively made. And so, you know, I, I felt that doing so was disrespectful of the work that had just been done in that room. And so it felt disrespectful of our time, and I had just had enough. And so to the CEOs credit, you were able to have a very candid conversation about that. And we were able to certify the decision that day, and I definitely think it was the right thing. To do and so, you know, I think it speaks to a couple things like, we were able to have a candid conversation and I was able to give the CEO feedback and see I was open to that feedback. And we were able to make the decision. But then also, you know, the issue around the meeting, like, you gotta, you gotta make a decision, you’ve got to, you got to make a decision. And I think, I think what happens so often is when, when we’re, when we’re unset, when we’re uncertain, it’s so much easier, just to call another meeting. And the reality is, especially in leadership, you rarely will have all the information you need, or want to make a decision. And that is just the reality of leadership, and you’re going to have to learn to carry some of that discomfort and that uncertainty, and that is actually the task of leadership. And so, you know, you kind of have to develop this awareness and this trust with yourself. Like, where’s kind of that balance of that discomfort? And how do you know, like, okay, I just need to move forward? And how do you know, like, no, I cannot move forward with this. And, and knowing like, what is the work in this moment, is the work is the work actually to call another meeting, or is the work for you, as a CEO, to do some of your own homework.
Dr. Melissa Smith 26:27
So don’t put that task on your team for another meeting, where actually might be your work. And so I think we really need to take as leaders responsibility for our own fears and our own uncertainty, and not put that on our teams, and then let the meeting do its work. And, and, and not ask it to carry other burdens that it wasn’t designed to carry. So the reality, though, is that this is such a common thing. When we are afraid to make a decision, it’s so easy to kick the can down the road and to schedule another meeting. So and you’ll get away with it, because it seems thoughtful, it seems deliberative, and it seems like the discerning thing to do, but I’m telling you, it might just be cowardly. And it might just be indecisive. And it might be really ineffective. And here’s the real thing, like it might be disrespectful of time, and of your team members. And it might be really inefficient. So we know that it that effective leaders have a bias for action, and that they need to be willing to make decisions. And so of course, there’s the issue of kicking the can down the road. And this most often happens under the guise of we need more information. So let’s schedule another meeting. And so you really need to be very wary of this tendency. So what I would challenge for those of you in a decision making role is understand how uncertainty and fear show up for you. Because there’s going to be a certain amount of fear and uncertainty with big decisions. And how do you distinguish between you know what I really do need to gather more information. And you know, what, of course, I’m going to have a certain amount of uncertainty because this is a big decision. But I think we we know what we need to know, in order to move forward. And, and that’s, you know, that’s internal work. Calling another meeting isn’t going to help you resolve that. actually moving forward, taking action on the plan is going to help you resolve that. So this is where self awareness and self leadership is always primary. So I probably be a dead horse on that one. But it’s such an important topic. Okay. So what I described right there with that example, is a perverse incentive. And so there are a lot of those potentially when it comes to meetings. So another perverse incentive of ineffective meetings is an increase in activity, which can signal working harder, even though the meetings are ineffective and inefficient. So and, you know, here’s the thing, if you would have had the rigorous discussion you needed to have in your original meeting, you could have saved yourself from all those additional meetings. Because, you know, this is one of the things that happens. We we call a meeting to discuss an issue. And people don’t have the conversation they need to have in that meeting. And so things don’t happen. And so what do you what do you do? You schedule a follow up meeting? And what I would say is that’s a lack of courage. It’s a lack of courage, because, you know, and that meeting has been has been rendered totally ineffective. And had you had the conversations that you needed to have in the first meeting?
Dr. Melissa Smith 30:24
Right, you wouldn’t have ever had to have the second meeting. Right? If people would have been held accountable in the first meeting, you could have saved yourself the second meeting, if goals would have been outlined in the first meeting, maybe you would have had to have the second meeting. And so this is really where we want to think in terms of working smarter versus working harder. This is really where we want to think about radical candor and holding one another accountable. And being really focused on adding value, and being driven to goals. But what I would say is we start with value, and then we pay attention to goals. Because, you know, we think about if we’re not careful, we spend our days running from meeting to meeting being very busy with this flurry of activity that actually doesn’t move us forward. And so it’s not productive, but it sure does look like we’re working hard. So instead, let’s focus on being more disciplined in our meetings, and cut down the number of meetings required. You know, and so this means we need to have more direct feedback in our meetings, and the meetings are probably going to be a lot shorter. And it means we’re gonna have less follow up meetings. And so it does, you know, the reality is it requires more courage on the part of everyone. I would also say, showing up with more courage, and more of a call to responsibility, in meetings, I promise will make these meetings more effective, because no one’s going to be sleeping on the job. And these meetings, especially as they know, they’re going to need to be accountable. And, you know, they’re going to need to be giving and receiving feedback in those meetings. No one’s going to be doing a crossword puzzle on the back row. And not that. Not that, not that any of your work meetings are like office work meetings, but the meetings become much more disciplined, because everyone has a vested interest in in giving feedback, and then making it better making the product better making the product being the meeting better. Okay, so now I want to move into solutions. So I’ve mentioned this already. But there is a great little book by Michael Hyatt entitled no fail meetings. And it is it’s a really quick read. But this is a nice little guide that can be very helpful for you if you run meetings, because it really helps you break down everything you need to know about meetings. So I’m going to share some very practical tips from Hiatt’s book first, and then we’re going to jump into some of the bigger issues that come up around meetings and, and team dynamics. Okay, so first, I’m going to talk about Hiatt’s five steps to no fail meetings. And I think these are really good to keep in mind. So first, decide if a meeting is even necessary, and if so what type and format it should be. So, for example, a stand up meeting or a status meeting. So are these even necessary? Can these be conveyed in a more efficient way? So for example, stand up meetings or status meetings, are these even necessary? I mean, I would really challenge whether these types of meetings are even necessary Can Can these be conveyed in a more efficient way. So for example, Slack channel, like a Slack channel might be a really efficient way to convey the same information. So for example, everyone provides their status update to the Slack channel by 815 each morning, that could be way more efficient than calling a stand up meeting or a status meeting every Monday at 815.
Dr. Melissa Smith 34:34
So number two, schedule the right people at the right time, for the right length, in the right location. So you know, you really want to think about when, where and how. And be thoughtful about this, and have a clear rationale for actually who needs to be there and why. Why do they need to be there. Third, prepare a results driven agenda. Hyatt talks about having three main sections to the agenda. And really, you know, this might seem like a small detail, but your time and attention to the agenda on the front end will save you some so much time and energy on the back end because of well organized and written agenda really does a lot of the heavy lifting for you when it comes to having an effective meeting. So the three main sections of the agenda, the first one is basic information. The second one is purpose. And then the third is program. So I’ll go into a little more detail about each of those. So with basic information, you know, you have the meeting title, the date and time participants, meeting leader and then the meeting facilitator. And then the purpose. And this is what I was talking about, at the beginning a little bit ago, this is so important, right? So clarify why the team is meeting and articulate the necessity into a specific purpose or goal for the meeting, followed by two to three specific results you hope to accomplish. And if you can’t stay what you hope to accomplish with the meeting, cancel the meeting. And I love that that is just point blank. If you don’t know why you’re meeting, if you don’t know what the goal is, with the meeting, you should not be holding the meeting. And that really makes it very clear to everyone involved. And this is the other thing that helps to keep people on track. And I think that’s really, really important when it comes to meetings. Okay, and then this third part is the program. So, you know, you want to think in terms of a personal budget with time is your currency. And there are four main sections to the program. So first is achievement. So you take a minute and celebrate milestones and achievements. And then second is expectations. So state your meeting purpose, clarify roles, and review agenda, know your time allocations. So you’re very clear about how you’re going to spend the time. And again, this cues people. And that’s, that’s important, because you don’t want the meeting running away from you. And then third issues, so specific issues that need to be addressed, what needs to be reported on what information needs to be clarified. And then of course, follow up from previous meetings. And then for and I love this one ownership, have each team member share their action items and responsibilities resulting from this meeting. And so this is at the end, and this is really brief. And it includes the next one to three steps to execute on what’s been discussed, and then the time commitments that need to be pinned down. So before you end that meeting, everyone is taking ownership for their tasks and follow up. And that’s, you know, that’s obviously really important accountability with each meeting is critical. Because you’ve got to, you know, you’ve got us, you’ve got to set up that meeting at the end, so that people know, you know, basically have their marching orders and, and have their direction from that. Okay, so if we go back to Hiatt’s five steps, right, so first was decided the meeting is even necessary. Second schedule the right people the right time, three, prepare a results driven agenda, then number four is meet and engage in a powerful, productive conversation that moves the needle for your business and projects. And so this is really where we think about that purpose. And so you’ve got to always be clear about Okay, what is the purpose of this meeting? And how are we moving the needle forward? Right, like, what does this have to do with our business? What does this have to do with adding value to customers or to clients? Or how is this building? How is this building our employees? And so you always want to have this connecting link in your meetings to your larger purpose, your larger vision, your larger mission statement?
Dr. Melissa Smith 39:20
And if you can’t keep that connecting, link that connection to your why, then again, that you probably shouldn’t be holding that meeting. And so it’s it’s your job, whoever’s facilitating that meeting, whoever’s leading that meeting, to carry that thread. And let me tell you why because it, it will, it will make the meeting more meaningful to people it gives them that why it gives them a reason to care about the meeting. So you know, if it’s a it’s a meeting where you’re going over financials, those those can be very stellar. meetings where it’s like, okay, I don’t know why I should care about this, it doesn’t really matter. You got to give them a reason to care, you’ve got to give them a reason to, to really be invested in that. And so everything should be connected to mission and to values and to purpose. And then five is follow up by reviewing your meeting notes, completing your assigned tasks, and holding others accountable for others for their sorry. And so everyone should always get a copy of that agenda with the notes and the task responsibilities. Right, that should go out to everyone. So there’s a clear follow up, and people can review those. So is it possible to hate meetings a little less, I think it is, it’s actually also possible to make your meetings way more effective and efficient. So make sure you head on over to my website to check out the show notes with all the great resources, including an excellent freebie that will give you some great guidance tied to this episode at www.drmelissasmith.com/episode-27 one more time, that’s www.drmelissasmith.com/episode-27. Remember, I’m on iTunes and Spotify, so you can definitely subscribe there. And if you’re so inclined, leave me a review that helps other people to find me. Thanks so much for your support. I’m also social so I’m on Instagram, @drmelissasmith, I’m also on Facebook, give me a shout out let me know what books you’d love to hear me review. Because I’m I’m always taking suggestions. So I’d love to review a book that maybe you’d like to hear in more detail. So you know, I’m a geek when it comes to that. So I’d love to hear what what you’re up to what questions you have related to your leadership. So I’m Dr. Melissa Smith. Remember love and work, work and love. That’s all there is. Until next time, take good care.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai